Kimato
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the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and be loved in return
Posts: 276
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Post by Kimato on Feb 7, 2005 19:33:21 GMT -5
Over and over again, I have heard the same water-weak arguments against President Bush. Between the petty insults and the hypocritical statements, I'm not sure which I find more laughable. Therefor, I will address them both.
1) The petty insult: Recently, a person I count as a friend and consider to be a reasonably intelligent human being referred to our president as "The Hannibal Lecter of the English language." I have two problems with this point that keeps coming up amongst those who would like to undermine our president. Those individuals seem to be of the opinion that less than perfect grammar and speaking ability translates to ignorance and a complete lack of education.
This, however, is not true. I know many intelligent people who are not good spellers. Nor are they grammarians. The friend who made this statement, even, while he is able with the pen, is laughably pathetic in the art of public speaking. That does not diminish his intelligence in my eyes, or anyone else's. He is regarded as one of the most intelligent people in our school by most people. To further support my point...William Shakespeare made up a few words in almost every one of his written works, and not only were these works regarded highly, we use those words today in our every speaking.
The second problem I have with this weak argument is this: George W. Bush might not be the most eloquent public speaker, but if that is his worst crime, I believe I will take him, with his lack of retoric prowess, as opposed to other leaders with a lack of regard for human life (and I'm not just referring to abortion), a lack of morals, and a penchant for changing their minds constantly according to what will get them elected.
Phew! Now for the second one...stay with me...
2) The hypocritical statement: Amongst my friends who are of the liberal state of mind, as well as from all those nasty little liberal corners of Congress, the media, and other would-be politicians, I hear repeatedly the phrase "BUSH IS A LIAR!!!"
And I immediately want to respond with, "You say that like it's a bad thing." If you will kindly take a look back into the history of the Democratic party, it is only very recently that liberals have decided that lying is a bad thing. Indeed, many Democrats have complimented each other publicly on their wonderful skills in deception. Clinton was praised by his peers as a wonderful liar. Now, if Bush's fellow Republicans were accusing him of lying, it would be a different matter entirely. However, hearing it out of mouths that haven't thought it expedient to speak the truth in over two decades, I find it amusing.
So forgive me, all those who are Democrats and die-hard liberals, if I can't seem to take any of your arguments seriously. -Kimato-
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Post by Whitakker on Feb 11, 2005 21:12:04 GMT -5
I heartily agree with Kimato. I can hardly keep a straight face when I hear liberals droning on and on about how much they hate Bush and the conservatives. I know of one person, much like the person Kimato gave reference to, from whom I have to constantly keep from laughing at every time he gets on his soapbox to bash Bush and his supporters. There are so many fallacies of logic in his arguements, that I now find it amusing to watch. There are so many gaping holes in his statements, that I am truly amazed as to how he can believe what he says. But rather than rushing to the defense of our President, which I do, I would wish to have them attempt to look at it our way. Alas, most are far to stubborn to even let the thought enter their brains. I doubt if such a day will ever come. What a glorious day it would be...*sigh*
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Post by Argis on Feb 12, 2005 15:14:59 GMT -5
FIRST LET ME STRESS I’m NOT A DEMERCRATE Well let me see how to talk to you conservatives *pulls out how to talk to conservatives**reads ok constantly say god bless America.* God bless America now lets see its not just he’s a liar(lying not always bad), but when you think he lied about weapons of mass destruction and said all those weapons inspectors are liars. When it their job is to find them. here we are these people dead icasualties.org/oif/ByState.aspx (conservative website) economy in a mess now tell me all these people died for a safer America when instead of a strong treating Iraq we really invaded a crumbling Iraq its weapons program was falling apart it only had one “evil leader” now we have million all aimed at kill those people and us so do you feel safer now huh?!?!?!?! God bless America. Now we don’t call bush a liar foe nothing either for one let look at the new a pro-life rally in his front yard and he just phones it in hmm now is he really behinds this second half the people who are antiabortion say takes another life is simply wrong no exception. Then they support the death penalty (I am anti-death penitently now you are going to say “if someone in your family was killed by them you would feel different. No, I would rather have them put in a hole and fed threw a iv so they have a eternity to think about what they have done and a clock contently ticking to drive them mad and to make every sec count that’s what I want.) Second he says “I am fully behind _____” yet he never attends the rallies post-election. Then you conservatives say “Bin Laden immanent to attack inside US” was to vague but Air-Tran’s letter “terrorist might attack” was on the money right… “There’s your sign.” That is 3 of the few reasons we call bush a liar. Now for Clinton’s sake, define sex that meaning is changing constantly young people don’t think about sex the same as our parents now (apparently) so for all we know getting a %!@# %(* isn’t sex. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. God bless America. Maybe now they’ll read it Thank you, Your non-democrat Argis :P
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Post by Whitakker on Feb 13, 2005 14:27:18 GMT -5
Argis, I think Kimato created this thread to have a place where conservatives can discuss what they believe about opposing parties and organizations. That's why it is called "Weak Points from Liberals". Now, if you want to do the same, I suggest that you create your own thread, "Weak Points from Conservatives", and let this thread be. In the meantime, I respectfully ask you to delete your post.
With respect, Whitakker
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Post by Thanatos on Feb 13, 2005 15:45:22 GMT -5
Nonsense. For one, the title of the thread itself does not seem to make a great deal of sense. "Weak Points from Liberals" sounds like a thread in which liberal members of the website would admit their own faults, not one in which conservatives would jabber back and forth the same stale ideologies and snobbish remarks, although it can eventually be interpreted as such. In either case, I intend to write a rebuttal of sorts to Kimato's initial post in this topic--it seems any subsequent responses were of little if any value.
Firstly, in speaking of the "petty insults" of Democrats, Kimato paints a shamefully one-sided portrait of the political arena. I have also witnessed a more than fair share of charges directed towards dear Senator Kerry, implying that he was a God-hating, baby-killing, village-slaughtering (Vietnam) Satan worshipper. The most common reason I garnered for people wanting Kerry to lose, however, was because he had an ugly face.
There is never a single side to an issue, something which the intelligent citizen should be full aware of before being wholly influenced by spite and malice, from either side.
I now have some specific replies to Kimato's two points.
1) Concerning George W. Bush Jr.'s position as a supposed "Hannibal Lector of the English language":
To begin, this is not a weak argument. Nowhere in Kimato's point do I see anything that blatantly denies the fact that our president has a less-than-competent grasp on the language--Kimato simply argues that our president might excel in other areas outside of these fields. Considering use of the English language is mostly comprised of grammar and spelling, the argument in and of itself is quite logical.
This argument is ridiculous. To begin with, William Shakespeare was already a master grammarian and a very eloquent speaker. He was also a writer, not the leader of the most advanced nation in the world. Especially considering it has just been established that our president is not all that well versed in the English language, this point is utterly mute.
First of all, we must realize that George W. Bush Jr.'s vocabulary and eloquence are of paramount importance. Every word he speaks influences tens of thousands, and if it becomes apparent that he is a bad speaker, the United States has the potential to lose massive amounts of support. It's not fair, and it's certainly not right--but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Now let's focus on choosing George W. Bush Jr. over leaders with "a lack of regard for human life." Not only is our president a strong supporter of the death penalty, but the war in Iraq launched during his first term has taken approximitely 100,000 Iraqi lives, over 10,000 of which have been citizens slain in the last year (sites with these statistics available upon request). More Iraqi citizens are killed by U.S. troops than by insurgents. It appears our president has a very Old Testament way of regarding human life.
2) Concerning constant screamings and assorted yammerings equating to "BUSH IS A LIAR!" by liberals:
After watching several overly evasive press interviews with the president and his assorted cabinet, one can come to the conclusion that either George W. Bush Jr. is indeed a liar, or that he is horribly mentally disabled.
Either the president is not at all aware of what happens in his administration (in which case we must ask ourselves why he's there in the first place), or else he cannot justify the claims he himself makes. When serious questions concerning the legitmacy of the president's actions are posed, they seem to have a tendency to be brushed aside or ignored entirely. Many more questions concern things that the president supposedly has no knowledge of, despite the fact that these things should be quite clear to an individual leading an entire nation. (excuse the use of the either-or fallacy, but there did not appear to be much middle ground)
And lastly, of course I am hypocritical. Many times this seems to walk hand in hand with realism.
I look foward to large holes in being discovered in my own arguments (as they are undoubtedly there), at which time I will continue to dissect and destroy our dear conservative government's most sacred and basic ideologies.
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Kimato
Full Member
the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and be loved in return
Posts: 276
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Post by Kimato on Feb 13, 2005 18:50:17 GMT -5
Before I drag Thanatos' piecemeal argument through the mud, I would like to say this: If you are going to make a political argument, at least have the courtesy to type it in Word and use a spell checker. Certainly, spelling and grammar is not the MOST important thing on earth, and a few errors here and there are acceptable, but when half of your words over six letters are misspelled, your syntax is terrible, and you seem to have forgotten how and/or when to use punctuation of ANY kind, it makes it a little bit difficult for those of us with "Bush-level" grammar or higher.
Now that I'm through with THAT, I'll start in on you, Thanatos...
1) In response to your first remark, about GWB's bad literacy being truthful, therefor not a weak argument...I apologize. I worded that badly. So, instead, let me say that perhaps the argument is quite logical...but overall irrelevant. I don't think I need to refer to that unnamed friend of mine again, who is wonderful on paper but horrible when it comes to speaking publicly. Have you ever seen George W. Bush write something? Probably not, Thanatos. His verbal usage of spelling and grammar does not necessarily reflect how adept he is at writing. A person who writes such convincing arguments as yourself, yet stumbles over these arguments aloud, punctuating every other word with "uh" or "umm", should know this.
2) Concerning your information on William Shakespeare...I'm sure you were right there beside old Willie every moment, reading his original papers to see if there were grammar errors, and listening as he spoke to see if he stumbled over words. So we all know how accurate your account of William Shakespeare's eloquence must be.
3) I'm deeply sorry if the deaths of 10,000 Iraqi citizens and 90,000 Iraqi soldiers, terrorists, fanatics, and insurgents disturbs you. I'm also deeply sorry for the 4,000+ innocent, unsuspecting American men, women, and children who died on September 11th, 2001. In case you haven't noticed, a war is not LAUNCHED by a specific declaration made by a leader. A war is launched when an act of violence is committed without cause towards innocent people. The war started in New York City, was brought back to Afghanistan, and has gone to (and will hopefully END in) Iraq.
4) And before you go into the whole "The war in Iraq is all about oil!" routine, give me a moment. Reflect on these words, written by Ann Coulter in her wonderful new book, "How To Talk To A Liberal (If You Must):
"How dare Bush suggest Saddam was seeking uranium from Africa on the flimsy evidence of: the findings of British intelligence, the findings of our own NIE, the fact that Israel blew up Saddam's last nuclear reactor in 1981, and the fact that we learned about Saddam's reconstitution of his nuke program only in 1996, when his son-in-law briefly defected to Jordan. The Mr. Magoos from the UN Weapons Inspection Team had missed this fact while scouring the country for five years after Gulf War I. Apparently it's okay to get the facts wrong, but only in the service of slandering America---the country we're supposed to believe liberals love."
Yes...how outrageous...how could ANYONE think that Iraq might be in possession of nuclear weapons. It is QUITE beyond me. -Kimato-
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Kimato
Full Member
the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and be loved in return
Posts: 276
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Post by Kimato on Feb 13, 2005 18:55:10 GMT -5
As for liberals confessing their faults...pardon my eternal and unforgiving cynicism, but you would need an entirely separate forum with categories for different faults to accomplish this, and I would never be so dilluted as to hope for such a miracle. -Kimato-
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Post by Whitakker on Feb 13, 2005 22:39:45 GMT -5
I would like to direct the attention to the section of Thanatos' rebuttal where he states that if the President doesn't have a good vocabulary and speaking eloquence, that we as a nation will lose support. A word about that:
We are the number one world power. Period. We are the world's pantry, the world police, the world's bank(we are the IMF(International Monetary Fund)), and the world's benefactor(number one in international charity). And you have the idea that we need international support. We are international support, my friends. We don't need anyone else's help. Screw what they think about us. I thank the few nations that had the balls to join us in Iraq, my hat is off to them. But even if it weren't for them, we would still be fighting this war against terrorism. Not a war against Saddam, not a war for oil, not a war for Middle East dominance, but a war that threatens the world. Now I'm sorry if this sounds too patriotic for you, Thanatos, so if it is, cover your eyes: Without this country, the world would go straight to hell in a handbasket.
Part Two: Thanatos makes a statement about the death toll in Iraq, especially the section where he claims that American troops have killed more Iraqis than insurgents. Thanatos, have you been watching the news lately? If you watch CNN or something like that, you will hear something along the lines of, "Car Bomb Kills 12 Iraqis, Dozens Wounded", or something like that every day. This stuff has been going on for the past year. What the news doesn't tell you about is all the support that the troops give to Iraqi communities, all the schools that they help, all the hospitals that they build, and the like. And you say that we kill more than the insurgents....I would love to watch you walk up to one of our soldiers and say that to their faces, since, by the way you say it, you think they are the ones responsible. You make it sound like they go looking for citizens to murder. Let me remind everyone that THIS IS WAR.
And last: Thanatos states that Bush brushes aside questions that are asked him. What Bush does is when these questions are posed, he refers us to a person who would know more about it than he would. For example, if someone were to ask him how the war is going, he refers us to Rumsfeld, or a military general. This makes perfect sense. Or if someone asks him how negotiations with North Korea are coming along, he refers us to the Secretary of State, or the people who are doing the negotiating with that psycho in North Korea. Again this makes perfect sense when you look at it.
So, Thanatos, I believe I have managed to find some holes in your arguement that need patching up. And in the future, if we could have a bibliography of some sort where you state where you got these references from, we would really appreciate that.
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Kimato
Full Member
the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and be loved in return
Posts: 276
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Post by Kimato on Feb 18, 2005 15:27:28 GMT -5
I applaud you, Whitakker, slayer of weak arguments! *claps most enthusiastically*
However, I'm not sure a bibliography is necessary, since that would require us ALL to do so, which would be time and space consuming. Perhaps it would be better to say that you need to be able to supply the references upon request, which Thanatos has done on many occasions. -Kimato-
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Post by Whitakker on Feb 23, 2005 7:40:20 GMT -5
*modest bow* True enough, Kimato, I suppose requesting references would be more convenient(not to mention space-saving). Boy, this debate sure has quieted down since my last post...
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Post by Argis on Feb 23, 2005 12:20:52 GMT -5
This is turning in to spare first face it you worded it wrong. Second I hate fussy tics now due to the fact D#@$ conservatives and Liberals constantly bicker about bush. Face it the main force you conservatives have supporting you is the scared and religious. You just want the freaking pope to rule. Just move to Vatican city and you liberals want everyone equal but you know well the darn world no longer cares if the man is mentally handicapped but if he looks good and steal every standing his opponent throws at his, and he is a Christian he’s finer by you conservatives.
P.S. As soon as people fight back you fall back on you idealism
fussytics=SPARE do you really want that?!?!?!?!?!
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Rune
Junior Member
Posts: 186
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Post by Rune on Feb 23, 2005 18:43:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry Argis but I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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Post by Thanatos on Feb 23, 2005 18:54:33 GMT -5
*modest bow* True enough, Kimato, I suppose requesting references would be more convenient(not to mention space-saving). Boy, this debate sure has quieted down since my last post... I've actually written out a two or three page response, but I haven't had the time to go back and finish it. (I got so caught up in gathering resources that I rather tired myself out, so was forced to write it in more than one session) Oh, and I got a very merry laugh out of the absolute general idiocy of the human race due to Argis' last post. I'd like to request that he keep it up--it's really quite clever, pretending to be from a remote village in Zimbabwe and all.
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Kimato
Full Member
the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love and be loved in return
Posts: 276
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Post by Kimato on Mar 1, 2005 17:53:00 GMT -5
Argis, I would like to request that you learn to be coherent or stop making posts on this forum. -Kimato-
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Post by Whitakker on Mar 4, 2005 20:41:14 GMT -5
Argis, I'm going to say this once more, for the hundredth time: Please make sense!
Another interesting thing about your post, besides the fact that it is horribly mangled: The entire post is in all caps except the word "Liberals", which might have been the only word that you seemed to care to spell correctly. I don't know if there's a hidden meaning to that, but I just found it interesting(and a tad ironic). ;D
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