An Interesting Theory about Emperor Palpatine

[Kimato]

I was recently presented with a VERY interesting theory about Emperor Palpatine. At first the idea seemed ludicrous, but as he explained more in detail, it came to make more and more sense. So, I shall present you all with the theory, allow you to comment, and then explain it further the way he did to me and see what you think before and after. Okay? Here it goes:

Senator Palpatine orchestrated ALL the happenings that led to the fall of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order...including the very creation of Anakin Skywalker.

-Kimato-

[Hanson Crawford]

Well, in Episode I, Qui Gon Jin proposes the theory to the Jedi Council that he believes Anakin was actually concieved by the Force itself.

What do you mean by creation? Do you mean fathering the child? No, that would have sertainly led to a 'Anakin, I am your father' scene. Do you mean he somehow willed Shmi Skywalker to have the child?

[Rune]

Hmm... I don't know which course you're taking to consider this, but I could think of a possible scenario where that is likely.

Palpatine talks about a Sith Lord who had once been powerful enough to influence the midiclorian (that is WAY mispelled, I think) count in a person's body, enough to save a life. We can deduct that this Sith Lord, Darth Plagus, was Palpatine's mentor before Palpatine himself turned on him and killed him. Now the movie never really says this, but, at least to me, it was fairly obvious. Just look at Palpatine's smirk when he tells Anakin about the betrayal of Plagus. Anyways, he also mentions that Plagus taught his apprentice everything he knew before he was betrayed. This means that Palpatine could also manipulate the midiclorian count in a person. In Episode I, it is mentioned that Anakin's clorian-thing count is off the charts, and that he was conceived without the actual act of... um... without a cause for conception. So it is possible that Palpatine could have been behind his conception by influencing the count or something.

I don't know, this makes sense a little, but hopefully you have something much more enlightened behind your reason for this thread. This was kinda off the top of my head, I'll think about it and hopefully come up with something better

[Kimato]

Err...Hanson, by creation I mean that he actually manipulated the Force to create Anakin Skywalker...

Wow, Rune! You hit the nail...well...not on the head, but you didn't really hit your thumb either! That is the GENERAL idea...not quite right but close. It is also probably worth noting that it is spelled "Plagueis" and "midi-chlorian" or "midichlorian". There are clues in all three movies that suggest the possibility of Anakin's creation being Palpatine's own doing, most heavily in Episodes I and III. In II the only thing concerning Anakin that is obviously orchestrated by Palpatine is the whole "let's send a 20-year-old good-looking Jedi Padawan off to an isolated lake house on his dream girl's home planet for a few days. What's that? He's had a crush on her since he was nine? Oh well, he's a Jedi. Nothing will happen." thing. *ahem* Sorry...anyway...I would really like to see if anyone else can add to Rune's VERY good response.

-Kimato-

[Kimato]

Come on guys...give me input! Don't be lazy, post a view!
-Kimato-

[Whitakker]

Well, if you connect all the wild chains of thoughts together, I imagine you'd get a decent explanation. Here's my view of the whole theory. This will take a while:

In the past, Palpatine(as Sidious) may have travelled to Tatooine, and a wacky chain of intrigue and events led him to alter the midichlorian count in Shmi Skywalker, enough to allow her to concieve sans husband. Now, flash forward nine or ten years or so.Senator Palpatine (Ep. I) convinces Queen Amidala to call for a vote of No Confidence in Chancellor Valorum's leadership and effectiveness concerning the invasion of Naboo. Once he is unseated, no doubt the Senator either made some shady deals behind closed doors, or he could have used his alter ego Darth Sidious to influence key voters with the whole mind control(aided by the Dark Side, of course, for remember that Sidious had the Republic in his hand since Episode I) to get him a canidate spot. And probably using the same tactics, he weaseled himself into the Chancellor's seat in the Senate. At the end of Episode I, Chancellor Palpatine was congratulating Obi-Wan for his bravery when he turned to little Anakin and said, "...And you, young Skywalker, we shall watch your career with great interest..." Hmmmmm....
Ok, flash forward ten years, Palpatine is still Chancellor(far longer than the term allows, and I'm betting that the same underhanded tactics he used to make himself Chancellor are being put to good use to ensure that he stays Chancellor for a while longer), Padme has switched from queen of Naboo to replacing former Senator Palpatine as it's senator, And Anakin is now an aspiring, handsome Jedi Padawan, under the wisened Obi-Wan, who is now a Jedi Master, ex the Padawan of the late Qui-Gon. Anakin has had the hots for Padme since he laid eyes on her on Tatooine, and since throughout the ten year interval it's a good guess that Anakin and Palpatine have become good friends, it's safe to say that in talking politics with Palpatine, Anakin may have left the impression on Palpatine that he has feelings for her(who knows, they could've been talking, the subject led to the Naboo invasion, Anakin looks off wistfully at the mention of Padme, Palpatine catches the look in the Padawan's eye...use your imagination). So, armed with this knowledge of Anakin's heart, upon hearing that an attempt has been made on the young senator's life, he sees the perfect opportunity. He simply arranges for Anakin to be Padme's bodyguard, and send the two off to a secluded, romantic lake house on the backside of Naboo. Sparks inevitably fly. Flash forward through II into III, the Republic is crumbling, war is rampant throughout the galaxy, and a number of other factors that have still kept Chancellor Palpatine in power. The stage is now set. Anakin and Padme are married, and she breaks the news to him that she is with child. With Count Dooku dead, all that's left is the bio-droid General Grievous, who Palpatine as Sidious has been puppeteering from the beginning of the war. Did I mention that Anakin and Palpatine are as close as ever? Whenever the two are alone, Palpatine slowly works on Anakin's mind and perspective, delivering the final blow at that concert-esque meeting, where Anakin is now the Chancellor's mouthpiece to the Jedi Council, not to mention his spy. Here, Palpatine introduces the whole Plagueis deal, as was so eloquently described above by Rune. Now Palpatine has him where he wants him, and reveals himself to Anakin as the Dark Lord of the Sith that the Jedi have been looking for the whole time. When Mace Windu comes to arrest Palpatine, Anakin comes to Palpatine's rescue in the nick of time, leading to the venerable Jedi Master's death, and Anakin's final turn to the Dark Side. It's worth noting that the axis of persuasion that was used by Palpatine to lure Anakin was Padme. That was his weakness, and Palpatine exploited it masterfully. With new apprentice in tow, Palpatine now proclaims that the Jedi are traitorous, and declares that matters press the Old Republic into transforming into a Galactic Empire, with Palpatine as the Emperor. Finally, speed through III, and there you have it: the transformation of the Old Republic into the evil Galactic Empire, courtesy of Palpatine.

Whew...

I hope some of that made sense to you guys.

[leiasolo]

Whitakker, good friend, I applaud your explaination.

I, however, want to make an addition and one minor correction:
Plagueis was in fact Palpatine's mentor. In the Episode III book, Palpatine confesses this to Anakin at that very opera show. (I recommend reading the book, by the way, considering I found it to be far better scripted than the actual movie). My opinion of Palpatine's knowledge of Anakin's doings, however, is slightly more farfetched, but I hope you can see where I'm coming from with it:

I believe from intensive study that aside from Force Lightning that there are other abilities that followers of the Dark Side are able to aquire.
<will continue later tonight>

[Hanson Crawford]

Ah, but Carrie, the books are based on the screenplay from the movies. So, in actuality, anything 'added' in the books could just be the authors fluff and can't truely be held as 'entirely' reliable. I agree, it's pretty likely (read as 'almost certain'), but, still. Just because it's in the book, you can't really say that's how it happened. A friend of mine said that in the book, the moment Grievous died, all the battle droids across the galaxy shut down, and that was not how it really was. Anakin was sent to Mustafar to kill the remaining Separatist and shut down the droid armies (I forget when Sidious says this.)

Also, there's one thing about this whole theory that makes it a bit shaky: Palpatine had no way of knowing if Anakin would ever be discovered by the Jedi, or if he would ever get off Tatooine. It was Qui Gon's decision to go there, remember? Palpatine gave no input. Also, He would have no way of knowing if Anakin would have the high mediclorian count he would need to be what he is. He admits that Plagus had the power to alter the mediclorian count to save a life; I admit the ability to create a life is also possible. But to give the created life THAT many mediclorians? It's far fetched.

And then there's the quote that kills the theory entirly: the apprentice never learned the art to mastering midiclorians. And the proof... At the end of the movie, just after Sidious breaks the bad news about Padme, he says something like 'We can save her, but we will have to discover the art mastered by only one man.' One man? That'd be Plagus. The Apprentice would make two. This goes against the 'Plagus taught him everything he knew' line, but it's a contridiction. Both lines exist in the movie, no other explanation but a contridction. You just have to choose which line you want to keep, and which line you want to ignore. No other explantion.

Now, he may have been talking about another Sith Lord entirly. I got the impression Plagus could stop people from dying, not bring them back from the dead. But that's unlikely because that would have been mentioned.

He could have been lying to Anakin with the 'only one man,' line, but the context of the line makes it unlikely. And the fact that Anakin never knew that Sidous was that apprentice. There would be no reason to lie there.

So, I say the final theory killer is just that Palpatine had no way of setting Anakin into his place as a jedi. Once he was there, it would be easy. But it would be hard to get him there.

Something I just remembered, which most likelydisprooves the theory. You might say Palpitin would just send a Jedi to Tatooine on some errand, and give him a job that would likely run him into Anakin (because he could hardly go their and come back with the kid to be trained without it looking suspisious, could he?) but then there's the killer: Anakin was 9 years old when Qui Gon discovered him. He BARELY got trained as it was, because he was so old. It was only Qui Gon stubbornness that made him a jedi. So, he went to all the trouble of creating this kid and then, left him on a planet til an age where there would be NO assurance he would get trained. In fact, it would be almost impossible to train. Obi Wan even discouraged Qui Gon from training Anakin.

You might argue Palpatine always intended Qui Gon to go there and get the kid when he was old (perhaps knowing Qui Gon's stubbornness?), but again, Qui Gon made the decidion to go to Tatooine, and once he got there, everying he did, he did solo.

In the end, it's SO unlikely that Anakin would get trained at that age, and you don't leave your Galaxy domination tool on a planet to grow up unused. So, I'd say it's false.

[Kimato]

I hate break it to you, Hanson, but the information contained in the books is considered by all but apparently you as being just as reliable and factual as the movies. This is because there is an entire team of continuity specialists that make sure everything fits together. Therefore, "author's fluff," as you call it, is not ALLOWED in Star Wars books. Sure, there's some liberties in description, but facts are scrutinized for every book that is put out there. And remember, too, that scripts are almost always greatly reduced from the original.

As to your second point, you're really bad at this whole "thinking outside of the box" thing, aren't you? Senator Palpatine (as he was before the end of Episode I) is a Sith lord. Perhaps one of the most powerful Sith lords ever to exist. I mean, come on, how powerful would you have to be to be in the SAME ROOM with Master Yoda, Mace Windu, and SEVERAL other powerful, Force-sensitive Jedi on MANY occasions over a period of about 20 years and NOT be discovered? Also...you really should watch Return of the Jedi more often. Read the book. Memorize it. Or something. Because Emperor Palpatine CLEARLY stated at LEAST twice, "I have foreseen it." He foresaw just about EVERYTHING...except, you know, Darth Vader betraying him and the rebels winning. But that is also explained in the book, quite easily and logically. So what says he couldn't have foreseen Qui-Gon's visit to Tattooine? It wouldn't have taken much. He was Darth Sidious, but he was ALSO Senator Palpatine. He was a close ally to Queen Amidala. He knew her very well, probably since childhood, as she was always involved in government-related extracurricular activities as a young child and teenager. He knew her strengths, her weaknesses, and above all, her dedication to her people. He laid the pressure on her by the Nemoidian blockade of Naboo. The Jedi came to help, and he himself ordered them killed (probably knowing all along they'd survive...come on. His henchmen were Nemoidians!) The Jedi got Queen Amidala off the planet, but the hyperdrive was blown by a blast from a Nemoidian ship. The nearest "safe-ish" planet being Tattooine, they were forced to land. Now, tell me. If Palpatine created Anakin, he would know that Anakin lived on Tattooine. How hard would it be? Think about it.

As for the whole "he wouldn't know how many midichlorians"...first of all, you misquoted. If I'm not TERRIBLY mistaken (and since I'm usually not at all mistaken when it comes to Star Wars, let's say I'm not), the words "create life" were used in the movie, if not also in the book, in addition to "save the ones he cared about." Going back to Episode I...for this to be your favorite movie, you sure don't seem to know much about it...Qui-Gon stated that since Anakin HAD no father and his midichlorian count WAS so high...it was possible (meaning probably it happened if not DEFINITELY it happened, since Jedi don't speak in absolutes), that he was CONCEIVED by the midichlorians. Conceived meaning MADE by. MADE by meaning he would HAVE to have a HUGELY high midichlorian count, seeing as the whole male half of the reproduction process (if not ALL of it except for actual development and birth, since he didn't look a thing like Shmi in book or movie) was done by the midichlorians.

Think of who said that the apprentice never learned the technique. Palpatine. Since when is anything he says truth? Even if he DID know the technique, he would never have taught it to Anakin, because to teach Anakin that technique would make him Palpatine's absolute equal, making him even more of a threat than he already was to the Emperor. He never had any intention, either, of helping Anakin save Padme. Padme's life, connection with Anakin, and death, were all simply tools Palpatine used to turn Anakin to the dark side. Once she'd served her purpose, she was no longer important to Palpatine. And neither was Anakin's desire for her to live. He wanted Anakin's whole devotion. With Padme gone, he got it.

As for your last theory...it's the only one that MIGHT POSSIBLY make sense. But again, there's the whole foreseeing thing, plus the Jedi prophecy (which Palpatine undoubtably knew about), and the fact that, being always in Coruscant and working on the Senate, it is unlikely that Palpatine had not heard of or even met Qui-Gon Jinn, and would know of his antics. Qui-Gon was rather infamous inside the Jedi Council and out for being the unconventional one. He always focused on the individual Force, the part of the Force that made up individual beings. That's where his compassion and his habit of picking up pathetic lifeforms came from. Other Jedi focused on the "unifying" Force, the Force as a whole, past, present, and future. Qui-Gon only bothered with the present. Why Palpatine probably didn't know all of THIS, it is still highly unlikely that he'd never heard of Qui-Gon.

And think about it. It's not THAT unlikely that Anakin would get trained at that age. Sure, the Council wasn't too gung-ho about it in the first place, but Anakin fitting the prophecy, and having nowhere else to go anyway, and the fact that in the end, it is implied that all the other Jedi already agreed with Anakin being trained, except for Yoda. Yoda himself said, "Agree with you taking Young Skywalker as your Padawan learner, I do NOT!" I do not. Not "The council does not." Implication: the rest of them had already decided in favor.

Plus...what's to say that Palpatine couldn't have just "taken Anakin in" if he was rejected, and slowly but surely turned him to the dark side? His future, after all, was very clouded.

Well, there you have it. After all is said and done, and all is done and said...there's still just ONE THING I need to say.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

-Kimato-

[Hanson Crawford]

Good points so far, Kimoto.

As for the likelyness of Anakin getting trained. In end, perhaps it was only Yoda (and Mace Windu, I think it's likely) who disagreed with his training. But I still argue that had it not been for Qui Gon stubbornness, Anakin would not have been trained. But even then, Palpatine could have just had someone get possession of Anakin and train him himself.

But it hardly matters. I mean, it's hard to go against the 'he forsaw everything' line.

But that does make his character seem a less cool. He sees the future and just makes it happen. I personally enjoy a more resourceful Palpatine. That took all of Anakin's moves in his stride and used them to his advantage.

So, I'll choose to ignore this theory. Because while it adds another twist to the story and it may make sense, there is no proof for it.

[Rune]

Just want to comment on one thing.

There's no reason why the 'taught him everything he knew' line and the 'only one man' line have to be contradictions. If a master artist teaches me all of the techniques he knows, that doesn't mean I'll be as good at the art as he is. There's no reason why Palpatine couldn't have been taught to influence midichlorians, but not have became as adept at it as his master. It's the difference between learning and mastering something.

[Kimato]

Thank you. So very much. Still...he would had to have been adept enough to create a life out of midichlorians.
-Kimato-

[Hanson Crawford]

Excellent point Rune, the thought never occured to me.

[Whitakker]

Kimato, I have one question. When Yoda disagreed with Obi-Wan's decision to train Anakin in Ep. I, he said, "...I do not!" But after conversing with Obi-Wan more, Yoda says, "...Agree with you the Council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be." There, he says "the Council." Apparently he is speaking for the Council. What think?